| Author | Comment | ||
|---|---|---|---|
 grodog |
First review, from Melan @ DF |
Lead | |
|
Posts: 1435 (03/03/07 21:36:44) Grand Marshall of Kalibruhn, |
www.dragonsfoot.org/forum...hp?t=22298
grodog
---- Allan Grohe Editor and Project Manager, Pied Piper Publishing grodog@gmail.com www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/ www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html for my Greyhawk site |
||
|
Lance Hawvermale |
First review | ||
|
Posts: 175 (03/04/07 12:44:14) Lord of the Golden Hart |
Well, we got 5 points for execution:
Quote: Not bad. Not bad, at all. But only 3 points for substance: Quote: Hmmm. I don't mind this critique. Personally I like my dungeons to make a little sense. I realize that baseline 1E seldom sports logical dungeon ecologies, but I think that's a flaw worth correcting. Quote: Melan is definitely hard-core 1E. I'll agree with his statement; there are some reoccuring themes in the story. Indeed, there is a story, which isn't always the case in spartan 1E dungeon-writing. All in all, this is certainly a good review. |
||
|
Imrandelin |
Re: First review, from Melan @ DF | ||
|
Posts: 83 (03/05/07 03:32:15) Champion of the Realm |
There's absolutely nothing wrong with developing a correct ecology system for an area. I consantly edited the old AD&D 1e modules for my games if I didn't think certain monster populations in adjacent areas was plausible for example, and this was when I was 12.
I think that this is a big plus for ToB and works in it's favour rather than against. Mike |
||
|
GT |
Re: First review, from Melan @ DF | ||
|
Posts: 4330 (03/05/07 03:55:32) Demon Lord of Puns |
Well, I never really concerned myself with "ecologies" in dungeons, but a few things that Gary wrote and said got me thinking about the "D-series", and what food the Drow and others had locally available for consumption (besides adventurers...)---Fungi, lichen meal bread, cavefish, crayfish, bat-on-a-stick [yum!]. However, although I really liked the S2 module, it didn't sit well with me that certain critters were distributed rather "randomly". Taking Lawerence's opening remarks of "filling in " where one deemed necessary, I made a few additions. Thus, the Gynosphinx (I decided that a creature from an arid environment would not sit in a foot of water for days at a time...) at the entry was perched upon a basalt dais raising her about a foot above the surrounding water, and she was fed from stores kept below or occassionally allowed out briefly to hunt. Since the critters in the tiers of cages are said to eat only live food, it became a task of Bluto Sans Pite and his brigands to venture forth and acquire deer, cattle or sometimes humans to feed these creatures. It's fantasy, but it's nice to see organization in a supposedly organized dungeon. Now, in a mostly trap-filled dungeon such as S1, this point is moot!
|
||
|
Falconer GH |
Re: First review, from Melan @ DF | ||
|
Posts: 407 (03/05/07 04:50:08) Lord Falconer, Royal Historian |
To some degree the dungeon has to make sense, yeah. You can't tell the players on the one hand "you have to use your cleverness and reason to solve these puzzles," and on the other hand "don't analyze too deeply into it, you're not supposed to worry about that." S2 is not the True Classic Dungeon--it's just a fun little oddball. B2 is more like it, and B2 is all about making DM and players think about stuff like:
1) Where do the Goblins keep their food? Where does it come from? 2) Where do the Goblins keep their women and young? 3) How do the Goblins relate with the Hobgoblins? Do they compete for food and shelter? Are they allied? Or are the goblins subservient? 4) How do the Goblins and Hobgoblins relate with the Orcs? The Kobolds? 5) How do the two Orc tribes relate with each other? 6) How do they all relate with the Ogre? The Minotaur? What/who do the bigger monsters eat? 7) How do they all relate with the cult of Evil Chaos? 8) Does the cult have agents in the Keep? What are the cult's designs on the Keep? What are the Orcs' designs on the Keep? 9) Are there factions in the Keep? Is there a power play among the authority figures? 10) Do any merchants or traders have secret arrangements with the bandits, the humanoids, or the cult, to prevent molestation and perhaps even turn a profit by selling to them? I didn't make up any of these; it's all in the Gygax. I don't run B2 as *primarily* a game of intrigue by any means, but if wise players want to pit humanoids against each other, or take hostages of their own, or carefully explore the Keep to prevent treachery from within, then I think they are much better off to do so and to avoid the deadliness of straight combat at all costs. Anyway, looking forward to reading Tower of Blood! ;-) Regards. -- Michael Falconer - ulmo.mux.net/
"Because by fate even the gods are cast down, weep ye all with me." |
||
|
GT |
Re: First review, from Melan @ DF | ||
|
Posts: 4330 (03/05/07 15:54:10) Demon Lord of Puns |
Yeah--S2 and B1 were both "oddball" dungeons. They weren't for everybody, but I love 'em. Maybe it's nostalgia... Now B2 and the GDQ-series have quite a bit of organization by their very natures and they are truly classics.
|
||
|
The Pied PiperRJK |
Re: First review, from Melan @ DF | ||
|
Posts: 6272 (03/05/07 23:49:57) Lord of Dimensions |
Lord Falconer said: Quote: Yeah. Not to mention that PCs need rations and water, but conversely, monsters shouldn't? There are starvation and dehydration rules in AD&D. That bespeaks ecology to begin with in a sense; it's just that tracking all that for monsters in a dungeon environment would be an insanely complex task. So, ready-made--and quick-- explanations, like the ones GT forwarded, are really good for sorting through this. |
||
|
GT |
Re: First review, from Melan @ DF | ||
|
Posts: 4330 (03/06/07 01:13:12) Demon Lord of Puns |
One thing in 1E I really liked was that the Monster Manuals didn't dwell on Ecologies... telling us that Bulettes like to consume halflings was good; if the text had elucidated everything bulettes like to eat, it would have been too much information. Did we really need the feeding habits of Dragons ?? I think that Rob puts such info in where it does good: In "Garden of the Plantmaster", a closed environment is assumed so such information is needed. The same in the Garden area of S3. In "Dark Chateau", not really--so it's not thrown at you. I haven't read "Tower of Blood" yet, but I assume that if such info is included, then there is a reason for it. If such a thing is germaine to a module, then it's good to have the data but if not, let the DM figure it out. ^__^
|
||
|
The Pied PiperRJK |
Re: First review, from Melan @ DF | ||
|
Posts: 6272 (03/06/07 22:47:55) Lord of Dimensions |
Hmm. Well, I have not been influenced by anything remotely 2E to begin with and even pick and chose amongst the conceptuals and rules as forwarded by 1E and OD&D.
For instance: I had skills already at hand in Kalibruhn, but they were really racial/unit/special bonus skills. Hunters of Karhaz were efficient trackers, Charioteers of Oros could handle such transport more efficiently, Javilineers of Penthe got a +1 to hit and could run for +50% distances before tiring as the unit's recruting practices were exceptional regarding choosing members with a "dead eye" and extra "wind", etc. etc. The idea of a dead-set, "this is the way that each adventure should be measured," is not in keeping with the creativity and openess forwarded by the original game idea to begin with. There must be latitude to create and expand on concepts, as long as these remain interesting and useable within the game context. I have noted this many times, and will state in again. If OD&D was the measure back when of a good FRP game, then there would have been no reason to expand beyond the original game rules. But are we measuring the limitations of a game in a box or its expandability and sculptabilty? Some folks fail to understand or appreciate that that very idea of expansion--adding in pieces of component parts, whether these be from old Dragons, fan-zines, convention game experiences, home-brew--well, that's what makes each and every nuance of D&D in whatever version, unique. It's the same when some criticize the Old School mods as being "written this way" (not in the way they learned what was "good"). What way? Is there one way?? Nope. Creation knows many ways; and the day we forget that and forego adding and tweaking and experimenting will be the day when imagination and choice flee the field and leave the game and its partcipants behind. |
||
|
Melan |
Re: First review, from Melan @ DF | ||
|
Posts: 165 (03/07/07 04:22:40) |
Keep in mind that the "ecology" comment is the lesser reason I pegged it as a 2e-feeling module. Monster selection is a more important indicator: Tower of Blood seems to rely heavily on "subrace" monsters and their interrelations, which is a very 2e-y thing for me... building on the previous mythology of D&D... There must more, but even reading the module for a second time, I couldn't identify the reason.
It just is: Tower of Blood didn't feel very old school, Cairn of the Skeleton King did, and with Living Room, the feeling was very strong. Actually, LR looks more and more appealing by the day. I know it will work beautifully in actual play. It's archetypal, and it shows. I was afraid Castle Greyhawk material would feel like a let-down after all the anticipation and heightened expectations... but no, it actually is very good. If Bottle City keeps up the quality, this will indeed be a great year! |
||
|
Lance Hawvermale |
Re: First review, from Melan @ DF | ||
|
Posts: 175 (03/07/07 06:06:36) Lord of the Golden Hart |
Melan is both right and wrong.
Melan: you have a good nose for 1E. You're right in that the module has a hint of 2E "story" in there. Here's why: I began playing in 1983. For about the first six months, I owned only the PHB and DMG. Then I finally discovered modules. Suddenly there were drow and giants and--later--a little something called the Terrible Iron Golem. I was also a reader. Today these loves of creating and reading about fantasy worlds have led me to become a novelist and professional editor. But I remember when my gaming life changed. It's when I picked up a copy of Ravenloft. Holy crap, what a story. I had no idea that purists didn't like it for the very reason I loved it. 1E is about skeletal adventures, around which the DM puts meat. There's not a lot of story in them, as the DM is expected to put that story in place. And that's a wonderful thing. But as a reader, I was amazed and thrilled by the writing I saw in Ravenloft. The story was deep, the villain complex. In fact, because of this complexity (he was motivated by love, after all), he stands as the greatest antagonist in the history of the game. That love of story informs my writing today. Whether I'm writing a women's fiction novel or an AD&D module, there must be within it some element of story. Though Rob and Allan both had a hand in the shaping of Tower of Blood, it is my thumbprint you're seeing when you find a trace of 2E; though Ravenloft was 1E, purists would argue that it more resembles the storytelling mode of 2E. So Melan is right about that. But I ask you: Does that thumbprint detract from the module? Is the adventure lesser because it contains those storylike elements? Actually, I'm pretty proud of it. But Melan is wrong about the use of subraces qualifying a module as "2E-y." The main baddies of the story--uderlings and kobolt imps--came straight from Rob's brain, and it's difficult to get more old-school than Rob. When Rob told me of these monsters, I was thrilled to write about them, as it helps get away from the overused orcs, goblins, golems, et al. 1E does not mean we must confine ourselves to a pre-determined "baseline mythology." In fact, each of our creations as DM should build upon and expand that mythology, introducing new creatures, new subraces, and new challenges, so as to make our campaign worlds rich. |
||
|
Gronan of Simmerya |
Re: First review, from Melan @ DF | ||
|
Posts: 1235 (03/07/07 08:38:36) Lord of the Barbarian Lands |
You guys are overlooking something.
Many 1E modules were convention modules packaged for sale. A convention module has one overriding purpose: pick a winner. They tend, therefore, to be linear, heavily railroaded killfests, because an easy way to pick a "winning team" is to slaughter everyone and award the prizes to whoever's corpses land furthest from the entrance. Gronan
"It used to be said that an infinite number of monkeys at an infinite number of keyboards for an infinite amount of time would eventually produce all the works of Shakespeare. Thanks to the Internet, we now know that this is not true." |
||
|
Clangador |
Re: First review, from Melan @ DF | ||
|
Posts: 2161 (03/07/07 13:51:34) Major Pain |
And is there something wrong with that?  -----------------
~Clangador "I'm a seeker too. But my dreams aren't like yours. I can't help thinking that somewhere in the universe there has to be something better than man. Has to be." ~George Taylor |
||
|
gideon thorne |
Re: First review, from Melan @ DF | ||
|
Posts: 470 (03/07/07 13:53:24) Lord Bradley, Royal Artist |
*smiles* Yes, as Rob pointed out above, not everyone's tastes are the same.
I might get the module at some point if finances permit, but as it stands I really dont see the need for something that appears to be vampire themed. ^_~` Peter B
Castles & Crusades/ Castle Zagyg Artist |
||
|
Lance Hawvermale |
Re: First review, from Melan @ DF | ||
|
Posts: 175 (03/07/07 14:12:42) Lord of the Golden Hart |
Well, I wouldn't say that it's "vampire themed," though it's certainly "blood-themed."
|
||
|
GT |
Re: First review, from Melan @ DF | ||
|
Posts: 4330 (03/07/07 16:10:46) Demon Lord of Puns |
There's a shadow of truth in what you say, Lance m'lad! "Course it could be a figment of my imagination...
|
||
|
Melan |
Re: First review, from Melan @ DF | ||
|
Posts: 165 (03/08/07 00:05:56) |
Slight digression:
Lance: for what it's worth, I am also a Ravenloft fan, strangely enough. My fascination with it, however, is not because of the story, but the underlying scenario, which is one of the most "gamist" ones out there. You have your own goals, Strahd has his own, and whoever wins, wins. Since Strahd has achieved complete mastery of the castle environment, things are just as tough as in the nastiest tournament modules. It is also fascinating how the DM is given only a limited number of attempts to use against the adventurers... that's very clever game design. Even so, I don't know of any groups I have played with who wouldn't suffer a total defeat in Ravenloft if they tried to play it at the suggested levels. Gronan: that is a good point to an extent. I would dispute the "railroaded" comment, though. Beyond establishing the initial conditions, many of the tournament adventures give significant leeway in tackling your challenges whichever way you would like. Even in a short scenario like G1, there are plenty of possibilities to approach the core problem. We agree in that I usually enjoy adventures which present reasonably open environments (the Judges Guild approach, but also found in TSR modules like B2 or Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure). What does all this mean for Tower of Blood? Uh. Don't look at me, I got distracted! |
||
|
grodog |
Re: First review, from Melan @ DF | ||
|
Posts: 1435 (03/09/07 20:50:49) Grand Marshall of Kalibruhn, |
Melan, any plans to review LR too?
grodog
---- Allan Grohe Editor and Project Manager, Pied Piper Publishing grodog@gmail.com www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/ www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html for my Greyhawk site |
||
|
The Pied PiperRJK |
Re: First review, from Melan @ DF | ||
|
Posts: 6272 (03/09/07 22:50:31) Lord of Dimensions |
Hey Peter; it's not a "vampire themed mod," though it might appear to be on the face of it, but that's the wonder and thrill of D&D, heh? It's a mystery, or as GT has stated, a "figment" of your imagination.
The actual story is much more involved and sets the stage for stuff we are working on for the SHADOW LANDS, which was in part the intent of this adventure. As for all the rest, YMMV. (I love Gronan's 'acronymic' phrase) |
||
|
gideon thorne |
Re: First review, from Melan @ DF | ||
|
Posts: 470 (03/09/07 23:47:11) Lord Bradley, Royal Artist |
*smiles* Well, as much as I would like to look into it, finances do not permit at this time. Maybe in a week or so. ^_^
Peter B
Castles & Crusades/ Castle Zagyg Artist |
||
|
grodog |
Re: First review, from Melan @ DF | ||
|
Posts: 1435 (03/25/07 12:40:06) Grand Marshall of Kalibruhn, |
Same thread as Melan's, more feedback from predavolk: www.dragonsfoot.org/forum...hp?t=22298
edit - spelling grodog
---- Allan Grohe Editor and Project Manager, Pied Piper Publishing grodog@gmail.com www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/ www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html for my Greyhawk site |
||
