So how do you guys go about making/designing your dungeons/adventures. Just curious.
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Clangador |
The DUNGEON Thread |
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~Clangador "I'm a seeker too. But my dreams aren't like yours. I can't help thinking that somewhere in the universe there has to be something better than man. Has to be." ~George Taylor The CLANGLUNA Forum |
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Othlinden |
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Clang, how do you sleep at night? Just curious.
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Clangador |
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Othlinden wrote: Sleeping pills help.
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~Clangador "I'm a seeker too. But my dreams aren't like yours. I can't help thinking that somewhere in the universe there has to be something better than man. Has to be." ~George Taylor The CLANGLUNA Forum |
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MichaelSandar |
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Old question, but still a good one.
I'm currently working on a megadungeon, and like all my adventures it starts with maps. My current favorite way of creating dungeon maps is to avoid drawing hallways, at first. Draw the rooms, place doors and any other major points like wells, pillars, curtains, stairs, your normal fare. Then start interconnecting the rooms with passageways. It makes for some very neat (and occasionally confusing) maps. After that, in the case of a big dungeon, I create a list of twenty or so riddles, quests, and rumors to be passed out. It's fun to explore a dungeon, but it's also nice to have an initial goal in mind. After that it's the (not so)simple task of filling in the rooms, though I've been using the Rules Cyclopedia campaign random dungeon generator with a few modifications, which is a big help. After that the big issue is making sure you can make good on your list of quests and rumors, be they true or not. Nothing is less fun than finding out that the fabled sword of Light the fighter has been looking for is in a different dungeon (sorry, Mario, but our princess is in another castle!). My group is due to start gaming in this monstrocity in December, and I will be constantly updating things as I go, to adjust for level, difficulty, and random changes. That's about it - moderately simple for a megadungeon. |
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Othlinden |
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Most dungeons I've ever created started from doodling out a map, during which the things filling the rooms came to me and developed a theme as the map
unfolded. Othertimes, I've grabbed a map from anyplace and filled it with goolies withner-nither, finding the same effect occurs as I judge the dungeon.
Fact is, it's easier to just make stuff up on the spot. So I wouldn't bother wasting your time. Just make sure you're good at making notes as you
play so you can reproduce the content later.
Generally, if you come up with a good concept for a dungeon, if it's really THAT good, then it's going to inspire you to change it and make it even better while the adventurers are playing in it. After all, you've got an entire matrix of possibilities. Why leave them fixed when a theme begins to evolve? Why not just go with it? The players are more in control of the content than they would ever even begin to suspect. And the moment the think they suspect it, the DM can just mutate the theme in such a way that intrigues them and innocently slaps down their doubts about the authenticity of the content. the moment they're back in wondering is the moment they re-suspend their disbelief. I've rarely had to do that, but I've been honest about my ad-libbing, so I've had rules lawyers call me on it, thinking they can get a benefit out of calling me on this, as if I'm actively designing by whim, rather than using the requirements of consistency with everything else as a measure for what will, or will not, happen. That's the key right there. A dungeon doesn't exist in a vacuum. It exists in a world, and if you don't know anything about that world, then designing it's going to be hard. You have nothing else to go on. But if you have a constantly evolving world, then you also have a mind toward what is possible. Follow that. For example, you don't need a LOT of writing to establish a world. A pantheon will go a long way toward establishing everything that follows. The followers really are likely to live out the same patterns along which the pantheon strives and competes within its own structure. What events occur in the world really do follow the metaphysics the pantheon brings with it. Thus, the rest of everything else is a lot like comparing rock, paper, scissors. Does this or that happen? Does a rock monster enjoy the light cleric down the hall? Those look more like columns there on the map than they do a cave, so wouldn't that be a temple, and being wide open, but underground, wouldn't it be more likely fire than shadow? You can just creatively trickle everything down in a play of your personal imagination, extending everything. Then, warp it a little bit as the different denizens influence each other's presences. Obviously, if the Earth god is opposed to the light god, then there's going to be some contention occurring between the two in the dungeon, and that means.. well, through in some lava flows where the walls have been melted, and some shafts of light to the upper works, etc. Speaking which of, how do the clerics get their supplies? Screw sneaking past the rock monsters. The shafts can double using baskets as elevators.... It's just elementary logic exerting itself in a creative play. Once you're well exercised in doing this, you come to warping the content enough that everything seems unique, yet has a highly natural consistency. Now, if you examine most of the modules that have come out of TSR from day one, you'll find thousands of glaring inconsistencies, but no one seems to notice those. So don't sweat the small stuff, just keep on working what you know and you'll be safe. |
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Clangador |
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I still sleep fine at night.
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~Clangador "I'm a seeker too. But my dreams aren't like yours. I can't help thinking that somewhere in the universe there has to be something better than man. Has to be." ~George Taylor The CLANGLUNA Forum |
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StoryART |
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"Dungeons" in my campaign are born out of the story and setting. I have to have a logical reason for the place to exist first before I bother
investing the amount of work necessary to build something really cool.
I know its been done ten billion times but I've always been a big fan of the whole mines of moria shtick in the LOTR novels. In my own setting I too have an ancient dwarven city from whence the dwarves were forced out and this serves as one of my dungeons. To keep my interest as a writer and DM there has to be a clear interest or mission for the characters that draws them into the place. They have to have a real reason to want to go there that grows out of the campaign and unfolding story. Rather than lead the players by the nose I try to write up a larger scale world map so the players have a sense of belonging to a larger and cohensive world and then focus most of my attention in on one particular region where the players are likely to spend most of their time adventuring. I try to look at this from the point of view of what the players are likely to wrap themselves up in based on the region I am writing and creating and get an idea of how long they might be involved there before they level to the point where they need to go looking for bigger fish to fry...so to speak. I always provide them with that bigger fish to fry. In this current campaign's case there is an off camera arch villain far to the North that the heroes wouldn't even dream of marching up to confront until they are at least level ten. Level ten knowing that they are likely to gain an additional level or two as they adventure their way into the North for the final show down. So starting at level one, one of the major plot hooks the players face is the nasty evil unleashed into the world by this same arch villain. So right from the beginning the arch villain is identified in the campaign and the characters have alot of time to build up a really deep and abiding need to go forth and smite him. In the mean time the badness unleashed by the distant off camera arch villain has spawned all sorts of smaller blights and challenges in the immediate realm where the characters abide. This touches here on there on places like the dwarven ruined city and one or two other possible dungeon sites alone with a whole slew of outdoor and city adventure threads. So having put this all together its totally up to the players how they want to proceed. I never push them in a specific direction although I might remind them of possibilities when they seem to be at a brief impasse as to what to do next. I try to keep in touch with my players between games, usually we have two weeks between sessions so I can have a sense of what the players want to do in the next session. Usually I already know as once the characters embark upon say...saving the village of XYZ then they are all heavily involved in that plot and area for several game sessions. Its only after they succeed at saving the village of XYZ and are pondering their next move that it becomes important, really pretty important...to get the conversations bubbling off line in emails so I know that the group concensus is to investigate the dwarven ruin further or look into the rumors of the cabal of arch villain related necromancers working out of the city of Z. Usually I have a fair amount of background and rough work done on all of the major places before the campaign even begins but having that extra heads up a week or so before the next game lets me dump another twenty hours or so...yes...i work stupid amounts on my campaign...sad i know...i have no life...so that by the time the actual game arrives I have lots and lots of details ready for that session. Hand outs. PIctures of places. Riddles when necessary. Maybe some special metal miniatures painted up. Dungeon tiles organized for all the likely encounters and areas...music even picked out. So each game session the players come away (my hope) saying...wow that game absolutely rocked. Usually if my players are having a great time then I am having a great time. |
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The Pied PiperRJK |
Nice Post StroyArt | ||
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Attention to detail when needed and fluidity (a favorite word of mine more recently) were steady in the Original Greyhawk Campaign and World of Kalibruhn, that
EGG and I shared, as both players and as DMs. We had many participants, and on many levels (game PC levels), so the end results in relation to these often
disparate and sometimes separate goals were not always an easy chore for us to administer to behind the scenes (or screens). So, keeping options open and not
solidifying too much in unalterable stone was a need rather than an option open to us as DMs. Everything seemed fresher that way as well. When the DM caters
to the excitement (directions) of the party everyone DOES seem to have more fun. Kinda like a group of kids agreeing to what field to play ball in and
proceeding to do so. After a few sessions everyone just starts showing up at that same field anyway.
Nice post.
Lord of Dimensions
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MichaelSandar.necromancergames |
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The Pied PiperRJK wrote: As the PC's of Many Levels (tm) made their way through already explored, cleared, or cleaned out areas of a large dungeon - do you (or did you) find yourself changing many of your notes on the fly? Or would this have been done in preparation? I like the idea of a mutable or 'living' (as it is often called nowadays) dungeon, where the PC's aren't the only ones moving from room to room and encounters weren't 'stock' trade. |
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StoryART |
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The living dungeon idea is very interesting.
I have never designed something along those lines but thinking it over I have some very interesting ideas on how to manage it. My guess would be that you would have a map (as usual) and a good description of each level as far as the location descriptions and static items like traps, etc... But in addition there would be another layer of description that would spell out how the level is used (usually) and by whom. Maybe a couple of paragraphs of history first to help flesh out what some of the no longer functioning items or older runes used to be used for (or say) but then a pretty detailed write up on who is living in that level now and what they are using it for. Then, as part of the side bar you might have a write up of the various monsters involved in that level but removed from the level. What keeps circulating around in my head is my Mines of Moria style dungeon adventure which is called THORADIN. Thoradin is heavily occupied by goblins so one particular level would definately include a write up of the various types and factions of goblins in the part of Thoradin. The level monster write up might look like this...(very much simplified) Goblin Gruntlings (Stat Block) Goblin Soldiers (Green) (Stat Block) Goblin Soldiers (Veteran) (Stat Block) Goblin Batminders (Stat Block) Goblin Batminder Sub-Commander (Stat Block) Giant Vampire Bats (Stat Block) Carrion Crawlers (Stat Block) Man Eating Cave Shrews (Stat Block) Deep Cave Ooze (Stat Block) After the general write up of everything for that level, sort of a ready reference. I would have both a -total- number of each type of monster usually found on that level and some little square hash mark blocks ready for checking them off as the adventurers slay them. I would also have a simple in design but fairly detailed encounter table or tables that would spell out not only wandering encounters but also what to roll to build encounters on the fly for each occupied room. I would mix that up with some more or less old fashioned static encounters. Like the big boss for the level, the Goblin Bat-Minder Sub-Commander and his bodyguard in the Giant Vampire Bat caverns would pretty much be written up as a static encounter with some minor variables. Also, something like the dreaded and much feared by the goblins, Deep Cave Ooze would probably have a color coded section of hallways and abandoned chambers it calls home. The characters would encounter it in that couple of rooms, it would just be a matter of having two or three creative and horrific ideas written up for how this thing might ambush those wandering into its lair and then roll to see which one gets used...or just go with what my gut seems to tell me the players would freak out about....(translation - enjoy) the most. The danger of this sort of level , to my mind, is organizing the goblins so that they have write ups for how they respond to alarms related to intruders. How many combat rounds it takes for the word to spread through this current level and then spread to the rest of Thoradim proper...where do they post heavy units of stationary guards at choke points...how do they organize themselves into seek and destroy patrols to tromp through the corridors looking actively for intruders and then once the cause for the alarm is pinpointed how long does it take before the various patrols converge on the battle location....patrol after patrol rolling into the fight only to be finally followed up by the sub-commander, his bodyguards and such all mounted on giant vampire bats. This approach makes what typically would be a lower level dungeon or mid-level dungeon a higher level challenge. I wouldn't ask my players to try out Thoradim at level four or level five even though characters at those levels typically make short work of goblins. Even the goblin veteran soldiers are only two hit dice after all...but still. The total organization of the goblins and their likely response to intruders makes them, as a whole...a very potentially deadly threat to any party entering the area. This seems to me to be a fair change between this style of dungeon and the static dungeon where characters could clear some rooms and somewhat count on their ability to hole up for a while to memorize spells and so forth. A party could still hole up in Throndolin but they'd have to be smart about it...seek out some dark hole the goblins seem to be afraid of or avoiding to hide out in....thus the reason for inserting those abandoned quiet little corners at the edges of things where the dreaded cave ooze or a carrion crawler or two calls its home. Arthnek
Last Edited By: StoryART
02/03/09 07:25:11.
Edited 2 times.
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The Pied PiperRJK |
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I Michael,
Yes, EGG and I often changed things on the fly, or more to the point and most often added to a skeletal bunch of notes already in existence, thus fleshing the encounter out in many ways. This would often require one or both of us "breaking" (if we were both DMing, which happened probably 25% of the time, or one of us would continue moving the party along as the other did the fleshing. Outdoor encounters were particularly challenging in this manner, and we went through lots of paper in deducing, let' say, a large band of brigands or bandits, as per the old rules. Creativity blossomed in this mode, for both of us, and then some as we compared notes. What's more challenging for me these days is to actually pay attention to the text of adventures, and I would rather, like EGG and I did of old, just make it up on the fly. That's where the imagination soars, and when you get used to this form it becomes easier and easier as the mind is always a pace or two ahead of the upcoming event(s).
Lord of Dimensions
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bubbagump |
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Well said, RJK. The best games I've run depended in large part on fluidity and on-the-fly adjustment. It adds a certain dynamic that simply can't be
found in running adventures strictly as written. In fact, several times I've run gaming sessions without so much as a scrap of notes or, on a couple
occasions, even a set of dice! Every time it was a rousing success. And no, that's not because I'm such a fantastic DM: it's because the true fun
of the game is found in building an experience, not in sticking to some formula.
That said, I've noticed a certain phenomenon lately - especially among younger gamers - that I believe is endemic to the current state of the gaming industry and closely related to the topic at hand. Many of these younger players, in my experience, have cast aside the notion that roleplaying is an event to be experienced and instead approach the hobby as a contest to be won. Granted this attitude has always existed to an extent, but it seems by far the norm now. Motivated by an immature and deeply flawed understanding of fairness, certain of these younger players have insisted (at times harshly) that I stick to the plot while DMing and roll all dice where they can be seen. They seem to think that if I hide the dice or fudge a roll I'm somehow cheating. Of course, they completely ignore the facts that roll-fudging is a time-honored practice among DMs and that any fudged rolls exist more often than not for their own benefit. They also seem almost completely incapable of making an independent decision for their characters that is not based in some way on the plot-guided direction of the DM. "What does your character want to do?" I ask, deliberately leaving the question open-ended, and the reply is too often, "What are we supposed to do?" or "What's our next step (according to the adventure's predetermined plot)?" Ironically, if I am any less than completely subtle in providing a plot-driven motivation, they complain they're being railroaded. Tragic, is it not? Further, if I make a ruling on the fly they insist that I support my decision from the rulebook. "Rules lawyer" used to be an insult, but just as in real life the lawyers now seem to be taking over. I find it difficult to determine which came first here: was it the chicken or the egg? Did the gaming industry (and of course I'm referring specifically to D&D here - the "big boy" of the industry - since they seem to set the tone for most other companies) create this attitude or were they simply responding to the demands of their customers? I suspect it may have been both. Regardless of whom is at fault, this problem seems to lie at the heart of the "flaws" in all editions since 1e AD&D. In seeking for more direction, both players and DMs have become reliant on the written text rather than their own imaginations. Designers find their creativity stifled by the need to have every concept conform to "the rules", so much so that there are many articles and other texts now extant than insist on a "right" way of designing. Anything that falls outside this rigid framework is deemed "bad design", regardless of how imaginative it may be or how fun it may be to play. The publishers themselves (WotC, that is, for the aforementioned reason) foster this gamist attitude - perhaps deliberately and perhaps not - by releasing more and more rules for every situation and less and less innovation in each adventure. Never once do they say, "Just make it up." This is what has motivated me on many occasions to comment on the true flaw of every edition since 2e: The problem lies not with the rules themselves, nor with the publications released, but with the simple fact that the publisher failed to teach people how to play the game. Numerous websites are chock full of articles and advice concerning "character builds", the best feat combinations, etc., but when's the last time you read an article about how and when to fudge a roll? When's the last time you read something about what to do when the players take an unexpected direction? When did you last read anything about how to handle a party made up entirely of wizards or rogues? When was the last time you saw an article on how to build a "character" as opposed to a collection of stats with a few background notes tacked on as an afterthought? Such articles undoubtedly exist, but they're very few and very far between. Instead, everything seems to suggest (strongly!) that every party must possess a specific mix of characters, must receive a specific type and number of magic items, and must progress in a specific direction or else you're just not doing it right. Several recent publications have even stated outright that playing any other way than that prescribed is not "fun". Balderdash! And in spite of the growing number of heated debates and "edition wars", each new edition seems to claim it is a "great improvement over all earlier editions". Again I say, "Balderdash!" When it comes to the amount of fun to be had, there has been no improvement in the gaming industry at all since 1e and its precursers. As much as I enjoy the d20 rules (my preferred system), I have to admit they've done nothing to increase the amount of fun to be had. AD&D (and earlier editions) had that part right from the start. Personally, I would have been just as happy if they'd continued to publish the old rules. There was nothing wrong with 1e that a little reorganization couldn't have fixed. If anything, all rules systems since - with their insistence on rules for every situation and a formulaic approach to design - have served at least to a degree to stifle creativity and (as Rob says) fluidity. This is not, to my mind, a good thing. My advice for budding DMs and designers out there: Choose whatever rules you're comfortable with, but when you're ready to design put them aside. Instead focus on getting to know your players. Figure out how they (and you) like to play, and allow your designs to flow from there. Let your own imagination reign, and let it feed on the imaginations of your players during every gaming session. Come up with interesting and creative "experiences" and leave the rules for a later edit of your work. Make the rules serve your creativity, not the other way around. "Fun" is something only you and your players can define. Trying to design according to some artificial system or some idea of the "right" way to design will only make your work one more in the endless crowd of bad adventures. Later, if someone likes your work enough to pay you for it, then congratulations. If no one but you and your players like it, then you've still done it "right". And when you're playing, by all means don't be afraid to let things flow as they may. Feel free to make things up as you go along, fudge dice rolls, and do whatever you must to entertain those players, even if it means they stray from your plotted course. You won't regret it.
Last Edited By: bubbagump
02/04/09 19:44:57.
Edited 1 times.
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Gronan of Simmerya |
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I find the best advice is, "Make up some shit you think will be fun."
Also, I avoid "plot" like the plague. Plot or story is what is discovered in retrospect reflecting on what the players did. 'Here is a world. Explore it.' Works wonders. That's what Gary did all those years ago, from that fateful day in Don Kaye's backyard, standing next to his garage, when Rob said to Don and me, "Gary has this cool new game called Greyhawk. You're a bunch of guys exploring an old abandoned castle."
Gronan
"It used to be said that an infinite number of monkeys at an infinite number of keyboards for an infinite amount of time would eventually produce all the works of Shakespeare. Thanks to the Internet, we now know that this is not true." |
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Gronan of Simmerya |
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Oh, and something else I've noticed among younger (i.e. under 40) players: treating rules as "Anything not permitted is forbidden", rather than
Gary's original design philosophy of "Anything not forbidden is permitted".
That in and of itself is probably enough to generate a novel-sized discussion...
Gronan
"It used to be said that an infinite number of monkeys at an infinite number of keyboards for an infinite amount of time would eventually produce all the works of Shakespeare. Thanks to the Internet, we now know that this is not true." |
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bubbagump |
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Exactly what I'm talking about, Gronan. Well said.
There has definitely been a shift in the way many products/games are written. The old rules were clearly intended to enable characters to do whatever their players wanted, within a reasonable framework that didn't unduly unbalance the game. Newer rules seem aimed at providing characters with "options", or in other words, "here's what your character can do, and if you want him to do something else you'll have to change classes/get a different feat/draw up another character, etc." Rather than providing a framework to enable choice this philosophy of design tends to inhibit freedom. Yet another example of over-regulation, I suppose. Concerning plot, I find it useful to have at least the framework of a plot in mind when I DM. It provides motivation for the NPCs, and thereby aids me in determining which course of action they will reasonably take. It seems to me that completely ignoring plot - at least in my experience - tends to devolve the game into nothing more than an endless series of rooms with traps and monsters in them. That said, I should probably clarify what I mean by "plot". For my use, "the wizard is trying to take over the world" or something similar is often sufficient. Detailed, intricate plots with numerous subplots, etc., can become problematic. I've enjoyed running such before, but insisting that the plot be followed until it's preordained end tends to force both DMs and players into making undesired choices. Extended, intricate plots can be made to work, but the key to doing so is for everyone to agree before play begins that they intend to complete the "story". In other words, everyone agrees to limit their choices to those that best fit the plot as written. Obviously, this can be difficult for players since they don't know the plot's end, having not read (hopefully) the adventures. Edit: Perhaps I'm using the word "plot" incorrectly here. It might be clearer to suggest that I want those NPCs/monsters around whom I build encounters to have a "rationale" behind their actions. Further, I prefer that the dungeons/castles/etc. in which play occurs have a cohesive rationale behind their use. For example, it seems unreasonable to me that a powerful archmage (other than Zagig, perhaps) would laboriously construct a mega-dungeon only to allow it to be inhabited by randomly wandering creatures. Surely such a dungeon would be constructed for a definite purpose, and surely the archmage in question would take action to insure that the creatures in said dungeon were there only at his discretion. These days, owing to the fact that I usually have little time for game prep, I tend to use a lot of published mods. I suspect many DMs are in the same boat. But I've learned that this does not mean I have to railroad the players into following the text. Instead, I allow plots to simply die if the PCs decide to follow another path. It doesn't break my heart if they never completely empty the dungeon, save the maiden, or find the treasure - they can always do that later. I also like to have several mods floating around in the back of my mind so that if the PCs leave one "story" they can readily find something else to do. It is not the existence of plot that causes problems, but rather the rigid adherence thereto. This relates back to my earlier criticism of editions since 1e. The 1e PHB contained the brilliant advice, "...the rules are not cut and dried. In many places they are guidelines and suggested methods only." Every edition since lacks this approach to the rules, at least in explicit form, and thereby suggests the rules must be followed strictly. Players and DMs often unconsciously extend this to the plot, insisting that it be followed as strictly. This is another tragedy. Another bit of advice for DMs and designers out there: You don't have to finish the mod for it to be fun. |
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Othlinden |
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Gronan, you are sooooo ON.
This is an ABSOLUTE, GOLDEN RULE of role playing: We should enshrine it, thrice. Also, I avoid "plot" like the plague. Plot or story is what is discovered in retrospect reflecting on what the players did. Also, I avoid "plot" like the plague. Plot or story is what is discovered in retrospect reflecting on what the players did. Also, I avoid "plot" like the plague. Plot or story is what is discovered in retrospect reflecting on what the players did. |
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